DiscussionIf the Drop the T movement is successful, would you want the community to return to what it used to be?

submitted by PatsyStoneMaverique from (self.LGBDropTheT)

I don't.

I have a "Things Fall Apart" perspective on why the gender movement colonized us so effectively. The LGB community was deeply dysfunctional and odds with itself before they ever took over.

They took advantage of:

Power disparities- the Ls were kicked out of leadership positions for objecting to transgender identity.

The weakness of marginalized members-Yes, my people, the Bs. We'll accept anyone who accepts us and we're desperate for a support system and somewhere we belong.

Simmering resentments- feminine gay men and masculine lesbians haven't been treated as much respect as they deserve in the past. They are, even today, still being used as a support base by trans-activists. You could throw a lot of the bisexual women activists in here as well, empathizing with another group apparently being mistreated in similar ways to how they were. I'm not going to accuse any of them of being shallow or narcissistic without a solid reason. I know better than to trust that impulse at this point.

Class and race- rich v. poor, socially advantaged v. socially disadvantaged, worldview v. worldview. You can shave group down indefinitely until there's no one left if you encourage them to talk over each other and focus on their differences. I think giving academics pride of place was a fatal mistake, emphasizing theory and gay studies topics as the basis of gay identity rather than the lived experiences of regular gay people.

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[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The LGB community was deeply dysfunctional and odds with itself before they ever took over

There's a reason for this: LGBT, and LGB for that matter, is a political unit, not a cohesive social group.

Well, historically gay men and lesbians always hanged around separate spaces and had different cultures, but modern LGBT activism served only to homogenize spaces and communities.

Lesbian bars, which used to be a thing, are now gone and the same is happening to gay bars, which are now being called LGBT bars because I don't know.

See what I mean?

Simmering resentments- feminine gay men and masculine lesbians haven't been treated as much respect as they deserve in the past. They are, even today, still being used as a support base by trans-activists. You could throw a lot of the bisexual women activists in here as well, empathizing with another group apparently being mistreated in similar ways to how they were. I'm not going to accuse any of them of being shallow or narcissistic without a solid reason. I know better than to trust that impulse at this point.

I doubt that.

TRAs see gender non-conforming gays and lesbians as eggs waiting to be hatched, nothing else.

As several posts on this very sub show, they are far from being the champions of gender non-conformity.

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There's a reason for this: LGBT, and LGB for that matter, is a political unit, not a cohesive social group.

Which is why T took over in Western countries that have made full citizens out of homosexuals, with marriage and broad non-discrimination laws. All the regulars packed it up and went home--mission accomplished. People who can actually be sympathized with by your average straight person. It's the same nature of love and lust, after all.

Activists, the bad kind, have to keep doing their thing. All the big organizations, such as Stonewall and HRC had to pivot to trans to stay relevant, satisfy whatever peculiar psychological functioning that drives their activism, and keep the money flowing.

In these places, I don't think there's a "return." A new chapter, perhaps. Something might come after T, but at which point, I think plenty of people, including laypersons will have wised up to the fact that there's homosexuality, and that there are other things, and won't again conflate anything else as merely gay two-dot-oh. Trans won't be going anywhere, but it won't be the zeitgeist that it presently is, probably just back to where it was a decade ago, where your average person is just vaguely aware that it's a thing they saw one time on television--peculiar, but not relevant.

A halcyon future for gay people is where nobody cares. It's a non-issue, as simple as that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

Technology has changed the way people socialize. We're not going back to the 90's, or earlier.

I'm optimistic after T, for the West. There's still work to be done in many countries, however, and certainly part of that is not helping them perceive the West as being completely degenerate.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Activists, the bad kind, have to keep doing their thing. All the big organizations, such as Stonewall and HRC had to pivot to trans to stay relevant, satisfy whatever peculiar psychological functioning that drives their activism, and keep the money flowing.

Precisely.

Professional activists are the ones who benefit the most from the problems they claim to fight against.

It's an interesting conflict of interest.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If it ain't broke you can't fix it.

I've seen this same criticism applied to the non-profit industry in general.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TRAs see gender non-conforming gays and lesbians as eggs waiting to be hatched, nothing else.

They get preyed on, and it works.

[–]FediNetizenSuper-semi-bisexual (i.e. straight) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

which are now being called LGBT bars because I don't know

Initially I was gonna say they're no longer run by gay men or lesbians trying to provide a safe space for their fellow gays and lesbians, but really I think it's because a lot of SSAs drank the woke kool-aid, and now it's "acceptance without exception" or thereabouts. SSA's that are willing to stand up and say no to the trans cult are still in the minority.

[–]orangina5 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

are you a lesbian? Why did lesbians lose all their bars?

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

are you a lesbian?

Nope, but I happen to know a thing or two about history.

Why did lesbians lose all their bars?

In the same way gay men are losing theirs: the "inclusiveness" doctrine and cultural homogenization.

The first demonizes the entire idea of a gay/lesbian-centric space, because you guessed it, it's exclusionary.

The second slowly morphs gay/lesbian spaces into LGBT spaces, which completes the process.

Things here are so fucked up that gay men are getting bashed inside supposed LGBT spaces, which started to become more and more straight over the years.

[–]censorshipment 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

Well said. And no. In real life, the heterosexual T is not really a big part of my local communities... the homosexual T is i.e. the gay men and women who identify as trans and date the same sex. Plus, we have a black community and a white community which helps tremendously. Wtf do I have in common with white men who only like men? Not a damn thing. But I have something in common with black men who only like men... same race. Don Lemon, not Anderson Cooper, feels familiar to me. 🤷🏾‍♂️

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

To be fair, Anderson cooper doesn’t feel familiar to anyone

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I see the racial divide as a bad thing.

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

I'm a separatist, so I prefer to be among black lesbians > black LGB > nonblack lesbians.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

More power to you.

[–]JulienMayfair 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just some initial thoughts, not terribly well-organized since it's been a long, frustrating day.

There was never one "LGB Community," even taking the long view of historical developments. The early neo-Classical groups and Whitman-inspired groups were mainly for men. Gay communities and lesbian communities had different, but parallel, histories, and ethnographers were studying this before Queer Theory arrived and shoved that research to the side. Gay and lesbian groups began collaborating in the 1950s and 60s and came together in activism in the 1970s and 1980s.

We were united like many groups are united by our shared opposition to anti-gay laws and social practices.

In some places, in the 1980s and 1990s, lesbian and gay men did actually socialize. In the American South, where I grew up, lesbians and gay men went to the same clubs (because there were not that many options?). In other places, these groups remained relatively more segregated.

But now, in the U.S., we've won most of our battles against sodomy laws, military service, and bans on marriage. To what extent were our communities shaped by those external pressures? What do we do now? In the age of smart phone apps, gay bookstores and gay bars have closed. If I think about it, do I want to be part of a gay community, or do I want to be part of a world of people who share other interests I have regardless of whether we're gay or straight? Is being gay really that interesting in and of itself? I've often asked myself that question. It's a problem faced by people who write "gay novels" or "gay movies." How do you make it interesting? My sense is that being a lesbian or a gay man really isn't that interesting in and of itself.

And, yes, class has always played a part. I'm from the upper middle class, and I was always invited to parties at homes of other gay men of my background, though we are segregated much more notably by class than by race.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

The weakness of marginalized members-Yes, my people, the Bs. We'll accept anyone who accepts us and we're desperate for a support system and somewhere we belong.

I mean this in the least combative way, but marginalized by whom and in what contexts? I have a lot of thoughts but I would like to hear where you’re coming from.

On a similar note, where is the bi-created or explicitly bi-for-bi infrastructure? Why don’t people create it? What would it look like? Where is it needed? Bi people have numbers that gay people don’t. Does it just come down to lack of (or less) skin in the game? As in, there are a lot of self-identifying bisexuals who don’t really have as much need for resources associated with their same-sex attraction if they have no history, plans, or burning desire to act on it or of only limiting the relevance of same-sex attraction in their lives to behind-the-scenes behavior. I would be interested in seeing more studies on and analysis of the bisexual population. I don’t think I personally know any bisexual people in my life other than some bisexual-identifying women who have only ever dated men and so I can’t really say theirs a particular community of interest between them and me based on our SSA alone. They do come out of the woodwork on dating apps though, but I’m not single.

Simmering resentments- feminine gay men and masculine lesbians haven't been treated as much respect as they deserve in the past.

Again, by whom and in what contexts are you talking about? Who is disrespecting them and how? I don’t really see masculine women and feminine men as very similarly situated in terms of in-group treatment by other LGBs or within greater society. I see them as experiencing very different issues and treatment.

I can speak more as to lesbians specifically and this is based on my own limited observations. As always, I welcome disagreement and counterexamples. Greater society doesn’t respect masculine lesbians but among lesbians, masculinity is respected more than femininity IMO. But even so, it’s a double-edged sword. If you are a visibly masculine-presenting women, you may experience some in-group shaming for all of the ways in which you are more stereotypically “feminine” or not dominant. Because on the whole I tend to present physically more femininely, my more stereotypically masculine traits aren’t a source of ridicule for me but seem to get me more respect, like they’re pleasant surprises or something. But even with masculinity being more respected than femininity, I don’t really feel like I’m held back in anyway by my more feminine traits. While I think that there is an in-group social pressure to de-emphasize your feminine traits and emphasize your masculine ones, it’s not like I’m experiencing any actual discrimination or hate. Though anyone who throws around the phrase “performing” femininity will get an eye roll from me, I’ve really only seen that on the Internet and who knows if they’re even actively homosexual or political lesbians.

And all of this masculine vs feminine trait BS can be over really stupid stuff to the point that I’m over the whole masculine/feminine dichotomy but I don’t know what other words to use.

I would also like to see an end to the top/bottom nonsense that I think is making all of that worse where there is encouragement of assuming sexual, dating, and romantic behavior based on personal style. Not only is it far off the mark in my experience, but it’s also plain stupid.

[–]usehername 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

where is the bi-created or explicitly bi-for-bi infrastructure? Why don’t people create it?

In the U.S., only 28% of bisexuals are out to their closest friends and family as opposed to 70% of gay people. And that's from a self-reported survey, so if a bi person is too afraid to come out to their closest loved ones, they're probably gonna lie. We just aren't out. The reason you don't know any is because they don't tell you. I know a ton of bi people. It's a problem :/

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I know they don’t tell me but and that they must be around, but they also don’t seem to be dating the same sex so I think the coming out calculus and what the fear consists of is a little different than for homosexuals.

I think I can relate to a lot of what some bisexuals may experience because I came out late and still a lot of people don’t know I’m gay. I realized on some level I was attracted to girls/women when I was a teenager but I had no plans of acting on it. It frankly didn’t seem like an option for me. I feared it would derail my goal of achieving stability and independence from my toxic family. So I didn’t think of myself as “gay.” and settled internally on “not straight.”

I didn’t have close gay friends in my adulthood but when the thought crossed my mind about mentioning it to some who did pass through my life, I did have a fear of not being believed that I was attracted to women because I was in a relationship with a man and I also wondered what the point would be if I had no plans of ending that relationship since I saw it as the root of my stability. It took me a while to get my head on straight. When I did have to deal with it, it was because I didn’t feel like I had much of a choice anymore since I knew I could never be with a man again. So I had to face it head-on. I imagine that’s different for bisexual women who do have the option to kick that can down the road or just never deal with but still have that confusing self-knowledge.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's similar to my experience, except I'm not a lesbian.

I realized on some level I was attracted to girls/women when I was a teenager but I had no plans of acting on it. It frankly didn’t seem like an option for me. I feared it would derail my goal of achieving stability and independence from my toxic family. So I didn’t think of myself as “gay.” and settled internally on “not straight.”

I put N/A on a couple of forms that asked for sexual orientation, thinking that that wouldn't give me away 🙄

Same-sex dating was also something I didn't think of as a teenager, I had a romantic friendship that I was ostracized and bullied over and all I wanted was to be left alone. There was no same-sex dating at all by anybody where I was because of the social repercussions. People moved away so they could do that.

I also wondered what the point would be if I had no plans of ending that relationship since I saw it as the root of my stability.

What's the point? That's a great question. The only times I tell people is if they ask me point blank and I have to kind of fess up.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

What contributes to the closeted ness?

[–]orangina5 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

disadvantages and lack of power when losing their straight privilege. lack of respect and inability to network within heterosexual circles. theyre not willing to fight and sabotage and confront heterosexuals but they certainly feel comfortable having those fights with us.

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

So you mean straights hate or don't understand us and (some of) our gay and lesbian friends belittle us as well. Gee I wonder why we are in the closet.

Probably the same reason I don't tell people I am atheist. It is none of their business.

We don't have to put our sexuality on display but we can if we want. Why does that bother you?

I get the most hate from gays usually because I get this privilege of never being able to express myself without both sides laughing at me.

Also many are in areas that still discriminate against gays but blame them for not coming out and getting ostracized or worse.

We are supposed to be fighting for our right to love who we want not who is the most gay and opressed or did I miss a memo?

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If you want to be taken seriously, have bisexuality taken seriously, you need to be open about it. If lesbians and gay men took this approach, hiding the fact that they were gay, do you think we would be where we are now? If you're not going to be open about being a bisexual and risk the consequences of being out, then you have no right to complain about being misunderstood or treated poorly as you can't expect people to instinctively know that you're not straight or gay. It's like complaining about how people are treating you as if you don't have a disability when you haven't disclosed that you have a disability in the first place.

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So I do what exactly? I don't hide it from close friends or lovers but I don't throw a parade either. I don't need to be talked down to by gay people for not being gay enough. Most of my gay friends, of which I have many, have no problem with the support I have given them over the years. Feel free to fuck off.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I never said you're not gay enough, and I'm not talking down to you. I simply said that you should use the word bisexual and call yourself a bisexual rather than hide or use a label like straight or gay, which many bisexuals do. It's worked for lesbians and gay men, and it stands to reason that it would work for bisexuals too, if they're willing to risk stigma until it gets better.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Here's the thing, though: when we use the word "bisexual"? That's not what most people hear. If we're women, they hear "straight, just slutty enough to pander to straight men's perverted fantasies (i.e., MFF threesomes)". If we're men, they hear "gay, just too weak/cowardly to admit it."

Why? Biphobia. Specifically, what it all comes down to: the belief that bi isn't a sexual orientation at all, and, therefore, doesn't even exist. So... neither do we.

In fact, since this is the default view, we often believe it ourselves. So we don't even realize that we are bisexual; many of us assume we're gay or straight. In which case... we're hardly likely to call ourselves "bisexual", are we?

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You could use the same argument for lesbian, gay and homosexual. All of those words carry baggage because of how they've been used in the past but they're the best way to differentiate LGB from straight/heterosexual people. Lesbian has been used for man-haters and unappealing women, gay has been used as a catch-all for bad/effeminate/not real men, and homosexual has been used an insult more than a scientific descriptor, but it's what we've got.

The only reason those misconceptions exist is because of pure statistics, which most people don't consider. You're likely to find a straight opposite sex partner as a bisexual than a homosexual same sex partner, which explains why bisexuals appear to be 'spicy' straights, plus you've got people calling themselves bisexuals even if they're not (same goes for lesbians and some gay men). The best way to dispel misconceptions is to be open about yourself, use the right terms and be visible. It won't stop biphobia completely, but it'll hopefully curb it in reasonable people.