What do you do when there are trans women you actually like?

submitted by ImPiqued1111111 from (self.GenderCritical)

This feels like a ridiculous question. I hate that I'm posting this here. I hate that I feel the need to ask this question. I feel like the rhetoric in every direction is making me question humanity.

There are two individuals in my life who are very lovely people. Who are funny, nice, would step out in front of a bus for me. Like, I just cannot see them as the people we talk about. I have to compartmentalize.

It fucking pains me to be GC and maintain these relationships. Like, they are literally not these people talked about here.

I don't know how to be both but these are two particular people I can't part with.

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[–]luckystar 37 insightful - 1 fun37 insightful - 0 fun38 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I just consider myself GC/radfem leaning without being 100% on board with them. I have exceptions for -- and deep sympathies/genuine allyship to -- the people I would consider "truly trans" (rather than just fetishists, special snowflakes, cross dressers, anime nerds, etc).

I'm talking about the type of people who usually label themselves "Transsexuals", which I'm guessing is the kind of person your friend is. They transition (medically, to the extent possible for them) due to gender dysphoria: a diagnosable mental condition for which they got therapy and were told the best available treatment currently available is transition.

They generally try to live life quietly while being presenting as the opposite sex in casual social situations. They don't wave their genitals around locker rooms or try to barge into women's leagues of sports or anything else that would draw attention to the difference between them and a biological woman (or man if they're a trans man).

They know they are biologically different from their gender ID and that is in fact what makes them trans. Aside from the GD, they have a reasonably stable mental condition.
Some prominent examples would include Blaire White, Buck Angel, Rose of Dawn, Kalvin Garrah etc. I have friends like this too!

I have ZERO problems with these people. I know that means I'm not 100% on board with radfem ideology as you could argue they are reinforcing gender roles or that they are really biologically [fe]male and thus it is technically incorrect to refer to them as a "woman" or "man" as it may be. I think they're just a tiny minority of humans (like 0.3% of people or something), that are struggling with a serious mental condition the best way they know how. They aren't trying to take rights away from women, they're not a threat to me. Yeah maybe it'd be better if Blaire White didn't act like to be more of a woman you have to be a bimbo with big breasts that wears makeup daily, but tons of biological women act that way too, and true transsexuals are such a tiny portion of society I don't think they are the main influencer or creator of "gender stereotypes", rather they're just aping those stereotypes to make themselves feel better, which a ton of biological women do too sadly, and I'm not gonna be able to change any of that.

For me, as somebody that views herself as maybe 70-80% GC, I'm comfortable with this. I don't see a conflict between my GC views and my support and allyship to transsexual friends. Like I won't go around rubbing it in their faces "hey did you know you're not a real woman? chromosomes, bitch" because the benefit:cost ratio isn't worth it. Whereas I DO see the uwu girldick anime avatar creeps forcing themselves into women's locker rooms and sports as a genuine threat that needs to be fought against, and I will NEVER accept them as the "gender" they claim to be.

Really all you can do is be true to yourself.

[–]fuckupaddams 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow you described my views perfectly. My main gripe is for sure the trenders, the fetishists, the weebs, and the Twitter hysterics. I believe the amount of trans people in the world is much, much, much, much smaller than what everyone's saying. These teenagers would have you thinking 40% of people are trans. They do not help.

[–]INeedSomeTime 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It describes it perfectly my feelings and why I feel so torn about two of my trans friends. One a TiM but a classical transsexual. I helped her (using her prefered pronouns because I think she deserves it) to find help because she genuinely struggled, felt suicidal and was harassed in school. She didn't really know what to do about her distress so I told her to find a good therapist, who will start her transition. None of our interactions ever felt odd or creepy even if she sent me pictures, she only asked which dress to pick and her face wasn't visible. Sadly I couldn't help her much with being feminine since I am barely feminine myself and stuff like dresses and makeup don't interest me.

But the other friend... a TiF. I feel uncomfortable around her. She isn't a classic transsexual you would know. She "discovered" she is trans because putting male clothes turned her on when she was late in her 20s. I'd say more things, which make me uncomfortable but I wanna avoid identification. But she is clearly a fetishist and funny enough she was worried about it in the past until she found a gender affirming therapist. That made me peak. Not my TiM friend but TiF friend.

[–]Poppy29252 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would suggest, as with any ideology or set of beliefs, that you do not apply them to the individual.

My girlfriend's sister in law and her family are "all/blue lives matters" people. But I really like them, they are good people who love their family and I acknowledge that they try to do their best for others. They're funny and caring and welcoming.

I can't push every single person I disagree with away every single time, otherwise I would be very alone.

[–]macaron 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Not all trans people push the insanity we talk about here, many trans people agree with us. Like Buck Angel and such, who are horrified at the state of things. (Buck recently did an interview with Benjamin Boyce on youtube, id recommend it)

People I think use this sub to let off stream about how they feel, I think everyone knows it's not that black and white tho.

[–]ImPiqued1111111[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a really good point, both about letting off steam, and about the fact that there are plenty of reasonable trans voices out there. Thanks for the reminder.

[–]catoboros 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Meghan Murphy also interviewed Buck on YouTube.

[–]MarkTwainiac 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Since the 1970s, I've been good friends with a number of boys/men who have at one stage or another of their lives felt most comfortable dressing, behaving and "presenting" in accordance with sexist stereotypes of femininity. Some are/were drag performers, some old school "transsexuals," and some just guys who like - or in their youth liked - to play around with fashion and expression the way Marc Bolan, David Bowie, Prince and gorgeous Peter Mr Marilyn Robinson of 70s/80s fame - and many others far less famous - also did.

Like your friends, these men I know and have known

are very lovely people. Who are funny, nice, would step out in front of a bus for me.

But they are also males, not females. Unlike the men you call "trans women," these male friends of mine have never told me that because of their own psychosexual issues the definition of woman and femaleness must expand to include men such as themselves, and that girls and women must include them in every discussion of periods, pregnancy, menopause, endometriosis, breastfeeding, cervical cancer, Kegels, Pap smears, etc.

These male friends of mine have never taken the position that because they are good at playing dress-up, applying eyeliner and hair lacquer, walking in high heels, sporting "girly" outfits and generally performing femininity, this somehow earns them the right to be in female spaces meant for the protection and privacy of girls and women. Or to compete in the female sports women of my generation fought hard to found, or to benefit from affirmative action programs meant to compensate for historical sex discrimination against females, to be given prizes with titled "woman of the year" and "female athlete of the week..." and so on.

These male friends of mine also have never argued that because they sometimes get side-eye and mistreatment from other men, it's up to girls and women to put our needs and rights aside in order to protect them. Many of these men friends of mine have been mugged and verbally and physically gay-bashed. But never once has any of them said that as a result this entitles them to enter and demand service in the shelters, refuges and programs that women of my and earlier generations established specifically to serve female victims of domestic violence, male sexual predation and sex-based economic deprivation.

These men friends of mine also have never accused me of being exclusionary and hurtful to them and other feminine-presenting or unconventional men when I did female-only things like menstruate, experience PMS and PMDD, get pregnant, suffer miscarriages, give birth, breastfeed, have mastitis, come down with gynecological disease, go through menopause, deal with pelvic organ prolapse, etc... Just as I have never accused them of being exclusionary and hurtful to me and the rest of the female sex for doing male-only things like experiencing male-pattern baldness, premature ejaculation, itchy balls, erectile dysfunction, swollen prostates, prostate cancer and male heart attack symptoms and male-trajectory kidney disease.

During the AIDS crisis of the 1980s and 1990s, women who supported, nursed and organized and demonstrated on behalf of men with HIV-AIDS did not rail against them for contracting a virus that at that time in history was a predominantly gay male disease. We did not go to ACT UP demos and GMHC meetings and shriek, "what about us?" and scream "shame, shame, shame" at the men attending because they were centering their needs as men.

When one of these once-feminine presenting male friends of mine recently died of COVID-19 - a disease that strikes males much harder, and is fatal to males at FAR higher rates than it is to females - I and his other female friends did not take to social media or the lectern to say "but females suffer from COVID-19 too!" We also did not claim funerals, eulogies and memorials for men that don't center and celebrate women are exclusionary and hateful.

If you stop calling your male friends "trans women" and see them as the human beings of the male sex they are, I think the issues might become clearer.

BTW, I have grown male sons, brothers, cousins, colleagues, and I previously had a father, granddad, uncles, and male husband and in-laws. Like your friends they

are very lovely people. Who are funny, nice, would step out in front of a bus for me.

But that doesn't mean they should be in the ladies loos, changing rooms, or women's hospital wards.

[–]ImPiqued1111111[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's nothing here I disagree with. I actually made a thread on the reddit board about what you discussed about the AIDS crisis. Anyway, you've given me a lot to think about.

(Also you're right, Peter/Marilyn Robinson was a looker!)

[–]greenish 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nothing. There are many men I like personally. It still doesn't stop me believing that men as a class have and continue to hurt, marginalize and try to control women as a class. There are also women I think are supremely shitty individuals - it still doesn't stop it from being true.

I treat the men I like as the decent, lovely people they are, knowing that they did not choose the system into which they were born and try to treat everyone with kindness, fairness, and equality, but because they haven't experienced it from the female point of view they have a lot of blind spots and sometimes fall into exploiting women's labour because the way things are set up encourages it and makes it easy and invisible for them to do so, and nobody's perfect. However, the reason I like these men is that when pointed out, they see that it's unfair and try to be more aware and change their behaviour without further prompting, because they actually personally care about other people, and not being an asshole.

Apply this to your TIM friends.

[–]ImPiqued1111111[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah, this is a really good point. There are men in my life I like also, and I can separate that from how I think of men as a class. Even though that can be something of a struggle too, at times.

This shouldn't really be any different. Thanks for framing it like this.

[–]LasagnaRossa 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can be friends with someone without sharing the total of their moral/political values.

I'm friends with many religious people, yet I'm a hardcore atheist, for example. Just remember to respect the person behind the belief.

[–]Thatstealthygal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just... be friends with them.

[–]slushpilot 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It doesn't sound like those are the people being talked about here. People can be trans without being "TRA" who try to impose themselves on everyone around them just to feel "validated".

[–]TurtleFuzz 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you should treat everyone with respect as long as they do the same to you. Basic Golden Rule stuff. If your friends are still polite and care about you, then you should absolutely still be friends with them.

You can check my post about losing a TIM "friend" because he made a sexist comment about me and claimed I was a TERF. Up until then, he was still respectful. Annoying, yes, but never made any disgusting comments. But eventually he showed his true face and I had to dump his ass. You can do that too, if you ever see any harmful behavior from these friends. But until then, just enjoy their company.

[–]BEB 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The British feminists had a spat over a TIM ally who launched a crowd-funding request for feminization surgery: some gave to his feminization surgery and used female pronouns for him, others felt paying out money to help a man look like a woman, and using female pronouns for him, was enforcing gender stereotypes and anathema to what we are fighting to retain.

The net result is this TIM, although a much-loved ally, caused a rift in the UK GC cause, so I think it's best to keep TIMs, no matter how much they are allies, at arms length on a political level. On a personal level, if you love them then that's all that matters.

[–]anadventure 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I disagree. That's the wonderful Fionne you are talking about, who has enriched my life a lot. Likewise I've learned a lot from many sane, empathetic trans people I've mt via twitter or YouTube. They are trying to make sense of this whole bizarre climate as well and figure out what is ethical and how they can support women as well. I'm so grateful they have spoken up.

[–]BEB 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I am not in the UK and don't know any UK GCs, so only saw the GC feminist rift over the TIM from afar. There is also some controversy over other TIM allies in the UK, right?

So as a foreign onlooker to the UK GC rift over the TIM, what bothered me was the vehemence in which feminists turned on other women in order to defend a person who at the end of the day is a male. And I was upset that gender critical women were viciously fighting and denouncing each over whether to use female pronouns on a man, and whether to spend money to feminize his face. It just made me sad.

But then my own experiences in the US affect how I view the pronoun issue, because in the US you can be sent to jail for "mis-gendering" a TIM so NO, I will not use female pronouns on a male, no matter how good an ally or friend he has been. American women have given an inch to TIMs (mostly without knowing it, because the laws have been passed under-the-radar) and now we can literally be incarcerated for not using pronouns.

However, GC feminists in different countries have different problems unique to their country, so we are all having different experiences and should not judge each other and each others methods, no matter how much we disagree.

Having witnessed it, I think that Second Wave feminism partially fell apart because women were too harsh on each other. So I think now, we should do what we can for the GC movement to the degree that we are comfortable, eschew trying to force dogma down each other’s throat, and be welcoming to all who stumble into GC spaces, but be clear that this is a women’s movement and not let men, no matter how good allies they are, divide us.

[–]tuesday 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

aw now i feel bad for being so harsh in my earlier comments :D You do make some fair points tho, and convinced me to dial down my irritation. It helps as well, that jkfinn was able to put into words something which has eluded me up til now.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Don't feel bad.

One of the things I've noticed as a longtime lurker (years) of GC spaces, GC Reddit and GC twitter is that, while we try to understand the struggles of feminists in other countries, we often end up looking at them through the lenses of our own situations. And that sometimes makes us judgemental, when we shouldn't be.

We are all doing our personal best, and we have a common goal, but I feel strongly that we should allow each other to reach that goal in our own ways, i.e., while we should ally on activism, especially via location, we should make clear to our detractors that not any single one of us represents the movement.

Because that's one of the things that led to the backlash against Second Wave feminism - opponents would choose the craziest of the feminists, and the craziest of their ideas, and hold them up as representing all women who just wanted women's rights.

So then Jane Average Woman Who Wanted Rights didn't want to be called a "Femi-Nazi" and so backtracked.

All to say that I'm glad you now understand something of where I'm coming from in my refusal to use female pronouns on men. And I do understand that the TIM at the center of the UK GC spat was beloved and many GC women were very protective of him. What bothered me was the fighting and the choosing of a man over other women. I don't hate men at all, in fact, I sometimes prefer them. But this struggle is ours and only we understand it. We can't be torn apart by men. Whoops -there I go judging. My apologies and my best to you.

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you very much! I appreciate that :-)

[–]dustyboobs90 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have long time friends who are trans but they are old school "transsexuals" who know they're biologically males but feel more comfortable presenting as female. I am not super radical about gc ideology in that I would never call them by he/him pronouns or refer to them as men. As long as they're not fighting to be able to be in women's spaces I don't care what individuals choose to do with their bodies and lives.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I've never had this experience. I've had a few hundred reach out to me on dating apps ( I'm a tall lesbian).

I've had in person experience.

These people are in the process of having surgeries or have had them.

Business owners. An athlete. A musician. A therapist. A doctor. A chiropractor ( now I just outted that piece of fucking shit). A huge number of trans as others are referring to here, who work in tech, who are engineers, one who works for Apple, one who works for Google, an engineer at Amazon, a firefighter (soon I'll just name them, the more upset I'm getting, the less fucks I'm giving, even with my career in jeopardy without jk eff you money)-- all these people came at me, verbally abusive, more than one physically, one damaged my right rib, stalking me, trying to find me in person, because they wanted me.

I'm trying so fucking hard not to feel diminished in this moment because not one of you has been chased down hard by a trans. I'm not talking TRA teens in their basement and oh yeah, these people are mega high wage earners too.

You'll sing a different tune when they're sexually interested in you and you say no thanks. When these people demand you're a part of their fantasy in their head they have created, and when you don't comply, you're deemed guilty.

You have no idea how these people get when they get romantically interested in someone.

All of them think I'm the one because I'm a very tall lesbian.

I disagree with every comment here.

[–]jkfinn 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I also disagree with every comment, but not because I'm unlucky enough to know so many T's. But rather because this sub has only been around for like a month and already there have been several "NOT-ALL-TRANS" threads followed by loads of sympathetic posts. This mantra is strange on a GC Critical sub, esp since it’s far more dominant than “NOT-ALL-MEN” which I guess by now has been all but buried. And yet it’s not men who are directly displacing both women and feminism, but MtF trans.

I really believe this exception stuff should be reserved for private conversation at best, because this is supposed to be a political movement, not a psycho-therapist office... it’s like group therapy where each gets to admit that they love certain of their oppressors... it was exactly this type of privatizing that helped to kill the second wave and drove many women into becoming psycho-therapists. Forget the patterns of oppression because, you see, after all, it’s really all my personal experience.

[–]tuesday 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You said it way better than I ever could, thank you! <3

"I also disagree with every comment, but not because I'm unlucky enough to know so many T's. But rather because this sub has only been around for like a month and already there have been several "NOT-ALL-TRANS" threads followed by loads of sympathetic posts. This mantra is strange on a GC Critical sub, esp since it’s far more dominant than “NOT-ALL-MEN” which I guess by now has been all but buried. And yet it’s not men who are directly displacing both women and feminism, but MtF trans.

I really believe this exception stuff should be reserved for private conversation at best, because this is supposed to be a political movement, not a psycho-therapist office... it’s like group therapy where each gets to admit that they love certain of their oppressors... it was exactly this type of privatizing that helped to kill the second wave and drove many women into becoming psycho-therapists. Forget the patterns of oppression because, you see, after all, it’s really all my personal experience."

It's not so much that they should reserve their hero worship for a private room, but more like, they need better self awareness. Notice that someone with healthy self esteem doesn't need to constantly discuss all of Uncle John's bare minimum decency in order to point out that Uncle John has some seriously subpar criminal behavior that should, in a just world, get him thrown out of the house forever. pedophile/wife beater/subjugating women's rights/whatever. It's all on the same scale of awful and can we please stop the hero worship of behavior that is just bare minimum human decency. cos it's gaslighting in the extreme.

You know how some libfems will ooh and ah over a guy who takes out the trash once a week while she does everything else? Same thing.

[–]jkfinn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yup. I have a very hard time or avoid altogether even mentioning Uncle John's name, let alone mentioning one seemingly good trait.

[–]ImPiqued1111111[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How precisely am I supposed to have an private conversation about any of this, when I don't really know anyone GC in my real life, and who might be experiencing something similar?

You don't like this topic, you don't have to read it. I don't recall telling you what to post.

[–]yishengqingwa666 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

THANK YOU. Save this dick pandering bullshit for... well, anywhere else.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just made a post about why this is, and the sympathy. You can feel sorry for someone, sure, but that goes back to these conversations my lawyer friend and I would have when we talked about moral dilemma of intent versus outcome. Intent versus behavior. Sure, we all have some slips sometimes, but when do you start using a person's constant behavior to then label them as that thing they represent themselves as?

If you punch twenty cats, you are a cat puncher.

I think men have different shit flying their way because of this. The term cishet male has become a slur as well, and put on men as less than now. There are so many women on dating apps right now stating they will date anyone but a cishet male. It'sbecoming a thing for sure.

One of my degrees is psychology.

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that sexually aggressive trans people don't also exist. I've heard stories of plenty of them online, and it's something we talk about all the time.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have not seen any one else talk about it, except the one back on reddit who said one raped her

[–]tuesday 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I hear you so much. I am constantly annoyed with the attitude displayed in this sub. Women keep falling over themselves like little subservient support animals to reassure themselves and everybody else, that they don't hate trans as a class, and all because they've found a trans who is merely not awful; and as if by magic, that one individual trans who meets the bare minimum for basic human decency somehow makes up for all the harm perpetrated by all the shitty ones.

Who's kidding who. Who's gaslighting who.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes! There is a phrase one of my professors said so often--"Who feels whose pain." "Who is made to feel whose pain." I am not an asshole either. I have hoped and wished for just ONE good interaction. Just one! I have talked to a couple of my friends about it. I kept thinking, someone prove all of this wrong, anyone? I used to be the doormat.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't know if this will help but, I was a TiF at one point and came back to my senses and detransitioned.

Growing up, I was a rather butchy/tomboy. So, I had friends that were trying to push me into boxes of "genderfluid" and "non-binary" and some other BS, which made it confusingnat that age.

I had extreme body dysmorphia too, and hated how I was developing...And was regularly shamed by my mother for how "skinny" and disgusting I looked.

Anyway, long story short, grew up in a misgynonistic "traditional" household where I was NOT permitted to do things since I was a "girl". So, I thought being a boy would solve my problems. It didn't. When I left abusive said household, I discovered who I REALLY was, and didn't see the point of transitioning. I can be a butchy woman all I want, doesn't make me a man.

I guess my point is...those people could be going through some things, and believe transitioning is a way out or an escape. I currently have a gay/bi(?) TiM cousin---his parents are traditional like mine but that might just be his way of escaping the toxic gender roles laid onto him (he's a bit different than his brothers, who his parents favourite---thr youngest is the "golden child".

If you like them, the only thing you can do is be there and listen to them. Convincing them directly may not work. I believe there's a blog called Gender Critical Dad that deals with the sensitive issue of his daughter wanting to transistion and how he's been dealing with it.

[–]PassionateIntensity 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Treat them as an individual whose beliefs you just disagree with. I have lots of those in my life! None one agrees with everyone on everything. And if it starts getting abusive, walk away.

[–]Confuzzled 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I actually feel there’s a spectrum of people on here, from people who don’t mind trans people but just want to critique certain aspects of the ideology, and people who really just hate trans people. I’m of the former, I’m really just in-between pro-trans and gender critical. I wish there was a community for people in-between. The reality is that there are a lot of nice trans people. They’re a group, with good ones and with bad ones. Don’t feel like you can’t be friends with them because they’re trans, if they’re awesome people, then be friends! You can critique the ideology while supporting your friends if they aren’t doing harm. I believe there are actually transgender individuals who experience great amounts of dysphoria so maybe I’m a minority in this forum.

My advice is step away from the more extreme side of GC. A lot of posts here vilify every single trans person and I just think that’s inaccurate and unhealthy. There ARE things to critique but hating on a whole group of people isn’t my style. Try to find a healthy balance of radfem and libfem opinions. You don’t have to be wholly one or the other.

[–]tuesday 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My advice is step away from the more extreme side of GC. A lot of posts here vilify every single trans person and I just think that’s inaccurate and unhealthy. There ARE things to critique but hating on a whole group of people isn’t my style. Try to find a healthy balance of radfem and libfem opinions. You don’t have to be wholly one or the other.

My advice is to stay away from the women who volunteer to be men's support animals. A lot of posts here are determined to see most transwomen as poor misunderstood baffoons who just need even more of our kindness and support. I think that's inaccurate and unhealthy. There ARE things to appreciate about the exceptional transwomen but since he's more rare than diamonds then worshipping an entire group of men in dresses who are trying as hard as they can to remove our rights isn't healthy. Try to find a healthy balance which is based on reality.

Do you see what I did there.

[–]ImPiqued1111111[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is great advice, thanks. I tend to be on the harsher side of the critique, but I've been dealing with this nagging cognitive dissonance about actually, well, caring about individual people. Comments like this and others are helping me to snap out of that.

[–]MezozoicGay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What do you mean by "like"? I know around dozen very respectful transsexuals, who were standing with me back to back during our protests against homophobia. They all 20 or more years after transition. I have very deep respect to them.

However, all of them are gender critical.

[–]jet199 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Is that old thing of you never know what people get up to in private no matter how they seem to you as a friend.

Most autogynephiliacs are nice people. They can be a lot easier to get along with irl than HSTS, who can be very mean girl towards real women and hyper misogynistic and homophobic even though they are considered true trans my many here. However AGP still are living their life around their fetish just like an out furry would be. If you want to make a moral judgement on them for that it's your call. Personally I've always had both male and female friends who tell me all about their sexual kinks whether I want to know or not so it doesn't worry me.

[–]Oof_Too_Humid 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

OMG..."living their life around their fetish just like an out furry".
That's going to keep me smiling...at least until my job makes me take a furry-diversity seminar. At the seminar we'll learn that because Eric in the next cubicle gets off on wearing a dank-ass mascot costume, all employees will be required to call him "Rover", scratch him under his collar, and take him outside to pee.

[–]kardamom 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

may i cite the lesbian radical feminist janice raymond from her book "the transsexual empire":

All transsexuals rape women’s bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves.

they're basically raping you by existing. cut them off and thank me later. if you're interesed in the book, it's available for free on her website: https://janiceraymond.com/the-transsexual-empire/

[–]Confuzzled 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I wouldn’t agree with that. Rape is a very serious thing, and by saying that trans people are “raping” us when they’re not, cheapens the horrific reality of actual rape. This just sounds delusional and like a parody of what TRAs think we say

[–]SanityIsGC 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When men demand and get entry to women's space without any concern how women feel, rape is an apt metaphor.

[–]kardamom 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

well, it's a pretty direct quote from her. page 104/140

she further writes:

Because transsexuals have lost their physical “members” does not mean that they have lost their ability to penetrate women—women’s mind, women’s space, women’s sexuality. Transsexuals merely cut off the most obvious means of invading women so that they seem noninvasive. However, as Mary Daly has remarked, in the case of the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminists their whole presence becomes a “member” invading women’s presence and dividing us once more from each other.

[–]not_mean_enough 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just because someone wrote it in a book doesn't make it a reasonable stance.

[–]anadventure 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That reminds me of the TRA cry "you are literally killing me by not using my pronouns/saying I'm a real woman." etc. Neither are literally happening. It's all metaphor and ideas. Feel free to explore these ideas metaphorically, but don't say trans people are 'basically raping you by existing' and expect me to take you seriously.

[–]kardamom 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

well, how else would you interpret janice raymonds work then? this is the full context:

What is also typically masculine in the case of the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist is the appropriation of women’s minds, convictions of feminism, and sexuality. One of the definitions of male, as related in Webster’s, is “designed for fitting into a corresponding hollow part.” This, of course, means much more than the literal signification of heterosexual intercourse. It can be taken to mean that men have been very adept at penetrating all of women’s “hollow” spaces, at filling up the gaps, and of sliding into the interstices. Obviously, women who are in the process of moving out of patriarchal institutions, consciousness, and modes of living are very vulnerable and have gaps. I would imagine that it would be difficult, for example, for Olivia Records to find a female sound engineer and that such a person would be absolutely necessary to the survival of Olivia. But it would have been far more honest if Olivia had acknowledged the maleness of Sandy Stone and perhaps the necessity, at the time, to employ a man in this role. As one woman wrote of Sandy Stone and the Olivia controversy: “ I feel raped when Olivia passes off Sandy, a transsexual, as a real woman. After all his male privilege, is he going to cash in on lesbian feminist culture too?” Rape, of course, is a masculinist violation of bodily integrity. All transsexuals rape women’s bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves. However, the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist violates women’s sexuality and spirit, as well. Rape, although it is usually done by force, can also be accomplished by deception. It is significant that in the case of the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist, often he is able to gain entrance and a dominant position in women’s spaces because the women involved do not know he is a transsexual and he just does not happen to mention it. The question of deception must also be raised in the context of how transsexuals who claim to be lesbian-feminists obtained surgery in the first place. Since all transsexuals have to “pass” as feminine in order to qualify for surgery, so-called lesbian-feminist transsexuals either had to lie to the therapists and doctors, or they had a conversion experience after surgery.5 I am highly dubious of such conversions, and the other alternative, deception, raises serious problems, of course. Deception reaches a tragic point for all concerned if transsexuals become lesbian-feminists because they regret what they have done and cannot back off from the effects of irreversible surgery (for example, castration). Thus they revert to masculinity (but not male body appearance) by becoming the man within the woman, and more, within the women’s community, getting back their maleness in a most insidious way by seducing the spirits and the sexuality of women who do not relate to men. Because transsexuals have lost their physical “members” does not mean that they have lost their ability to penetrate women—women’s mind, women’s space, women’s sexuality. Transsexuals merely cut off the most obvious means of invading women so that they seem noninvasive. However, as Mary Daly has remarked, in the case of the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminists their whole presence becomes a “member” invading women’s presence and dividing us once more from each other.

[–]SanityIsGC 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When men demand and get entry to women's space without any concern how women feel, rape is an apt metaphor.

[–]not_mean_enough 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that when you have an actual mental illness and the only treatment you're offered is to take hormones and cut off your willy, then it's not a political issue, but a medical one. I don't think men doing weird things to their own bodies harms the feminist cause – it's how a treatment for a rare mental illness has become politicised and taken over by fetishists. Nobody's gonna convince me that Susie Green isn't a bigger threat to women than Miranda Yardley.

Also, you're allowed to have friends who have different views than you.

[–]coffeedrinker 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't personally know any trans people (as far as I'm aware), but if I had a trans friend I would treat them as their preferred gender. But to be honest, it'd be hard for me to see them that way. Like in my head I'd probably still refer to them as their bio sex, but obviously I wouldn't say that out loud.

[–]Delia 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just keep being friends with them. I had a friend like that once to. In a less demanding time.

[–]yishengqingwa666 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, tell them they are men and should not be allowed in female spaces see how friendly they are to you. NATALT. Uh huh. Sure.